From Yuri Kochiyama to Amy Uyematsu, Asian folk have pointed out exactly what you are stating, that it is a psychological and often times deep root sense of self-hate. In that video, from about 7: I think a lot of Asian folk, regardless of first second or third generation etc.
Also might be worth a read if you have the time: Your dichotomy makes no sense. Racism is all psychological as far as I can see. Its not like you develop some racist genes from a years of suffering from racism. People learn from what they see. Most of what Asians learn about Blacks and Whites before coming to the U. How do you think Blacks are portrayed in the US media? When do Black people make it to the news? Personally somehow I was clueless about many racial issues when I first came to the US.
Also, keep in mind that most Asian countries were European colonies. Even today, many Asian countries have soldiers from White country stationed in them. Generation of Asians were taught Whites are better. So, my question to you is do you see Asians committing racist acts that pale in comparison to others including Blacks towards Asians?
The most important aspect is how they act on their prejudices. This is where I think laws are important because you cannot just trust people to act out of the goodness of their heart always. There are some serious concerns in the Asian community about this. But you insist upon putting your head in the sand. This is not rocket science. This is a matter of public record.
They should be arrested and thrown into prison for their crimes. What you are saying is that so long as there are Puerto Rican criminals who attack Asian people, then Puerto Ricans as a group cannot be accepted by Asian people. However, if Puerto Rican society can somehow stop their criminals from committing these crimes, only then will they become acceptable to Asians. Now does that make any sense, I ask you? Can you as an Asian stop Asian criminals from committing crimes? Can White society stop White criminals from committing crimes? How exactly is this done?
Skin color or shared culture do not make people any more complicit in the crimes of other people who share their color or culture. May be my experience can help you understand something. So I was quite sympathized with Black people in this country. I met a couple of black students from Africa.
They were different from us, but more or less normal and nice people. Because the US was a so developed and advanced country, I expected Blacks to be better educated here even they were discriminated against. After I arrived in this country, I was surprised to find out that almost all the violent crimes reported on TV were committed in Black neighborhood by Blacks, not by whites; the Black neighborhood that I went to was scary; and most of all, there were a few times that the blacks I met outside of school were not very nice or even scary…… On the other hand, to a new arrival like me, White people were nicer than I expected, even nicer than my fellow Chinese in China on surface.
There were a few times that I had chances to talk about black people and their problems with my White roommates and classmates in private. I expected them to say something bad about Blacks, but to my surprise, they were all very sympathized with Blacks, very defensive for them and tried to explain to me the roots of their problems. Over the years, I gradually understood more about Blacks and took a more sympathized and positive view toward them. I myself had met many admirable Blacks and most Blacks that I had interaction with are nice and good people.
How could you expect we immigrants to have positive view on Blacks? It is so against our values and common sense, and will only reinforced those negative views. In previous decades ALL black people were pretty much forced into the same neighborhoods—obviously some were better than others, but all Blacks were relegated to live in relatively close proximity. This made the old Black neighborhoods much better places to live, because you had many successful and hard working Blacks mixed in as part of the social structure in those neighborhoods. They acted as a balance against the more destructive elements.
However, a big part of the Civil Rights movement was equality and parity with Whites. So it came to the point were if you were Black and successful, you moved out of the neighborhoods designated for Black people and began to integrate—in housing, in education, and in career. But as you can see, that very action left the ethnic ghettos with fewer and fewer successful people in them to counteract the social pathologies there. If you were a Black person who was educated, employed, and upwardly mobile, you left the ghetto and dispersed into diverse multicultural neighborhoods.
But by so doing, it left the only identifiably Black neighborhoods as the centers of pathology and crime. This only continued to fuel the rapid exodus by anyone who had ambition and the means to escape. When Asians have problems with Blacks for the most part they are having trouble with the criminal element who are still stuck in the ghetto. They are not being robbed by Black Electricians, Cops, Dentists, and Loan Officers, they are being robbed by the residual criminal elements that are still concentrated in the old ethnic ghettos.
Just because a person lives in the ghetto does not make them a criminal or violent. But there tends to be a higher concentration of criminals in the ghettos. So, you see Juan we are not all bad. For those of you unfamiliar with NAM, look at the member countries and its history.
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Asian immigrants has nothing against Black people they met in work places. Black colleagues, even those janitors and secretaries, usually are good and nice people, and we often can be friend with them. So the negative views about blacks are generally on this image, not all the black people.
We also are not used to the political correctness, when we talk about Blacks, we can not be as articulate as Whites and may often appear to be blatant racists. One step at a time mate. I hang around the FOB crowd and we got plenty of. So when you see a Black acting like that in real life it activates your conformation bias. Well, nobody thinks that ALL the Black people every last one behave negatively, not even the people on Stormfront.
I was quite surprised to find out that we Asian immigrants were considered as the most racist group a couple of years ago, when I first tried to do some serious research about American born Asians on the web. I was especially shocked that many second generations Asians had this opinion. It is true that many Asian immigrants formed negative opinions toward ghetto type of Black people from their personal experiences, and a few of us may quite open and blatantly say some bad thing about Blacks when talking with their Asian friends.
Besides that, I doubt that there are many black people have had any experience of being treated badly by Asian immigrants, except the few Korean store owners in black neighborhoods. Most Asian immigrants that I know of more or less have had some bad encounters with Blacks. For example, we often are not treated nicely by Blacks when we go to a fast food restaurant, government offices, DMVs or a hospital reception desk if people who work there are mostly Blacks. Occasionally it was very clear to us that we were rudely treated just because we were Asian immigrants. You are right that Asian prejudice toward Blacks are based on fear, not hate.
The few negative really life experiences are much more powerful than anything for most people. So the image of Blacks in our head are often dominate by those bad experiences which conform what we see in the media, even though most Black people we met in really life are okay. On one Chinese parenting forum that I often visit, there are a sizable percentage of Chinese parents who support or not against prefer treatment to Black kids in elite college admission, while on this board and other places, I rarely see any AAs support that kind of practice.
When it comes to real life experiences, those too are seen through the prism that media has created. If no one had told you to watch out for Blacks in the first place you might see individual incidents as just that—individual, instead of seeing them as confirmation of a racial culture. Let me ask you this question. Since you have been in the United States, of all the Black people that you have seen or come in contact with, have most of them:. First generation immigrants with poor English skills are simply too poorly equipped in terms of language and cultural familiarity to enable smooth integration into the neighbourhoods where they do business.
Here in Turkey, there have been several situations where I thought that a store-clerk or waiter was being rude — or even racist — until I started speaking to them in my poor Turkish only to realize that their coldness, indifference, or rudeness, was simply insecurity about not being able to understand English.
When I reached out in their own language their whole attitude and affect changed. So, mis-communication over language barriers quickly reinforce pervasive negative beliefs. Totally agree to your points on miscommunication, Ben. I feel the reverse might be true — that a large portion of blacks are extremely prejudice towards Asians. As a matter of fact, they usually can get away with their racism.
There was no serious backlash against their racist remark towards Asians.
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When Jeremy Lin played in college, black players who called him racial slurs never got into any trouble for doing that. Someone here brought up violent crimes against Asians. Most young Asians I know are afraid to talk about it. David Duke rants about black crimes, so we better not discuss it. American blacks are the victims. They are the victims of the system. Progressives disguise their anti-Asian chauvinism behind advocacy for African-Americans, and conservatives mask their anti-black agenda with the Model Minority. I agree with this.
It is disturbing that the only people who seem to be talking openly about anti-Asian violence in black communities are right-wing HBD freaks. Anti-Asian sentiments is an accepted part of US culture. Making fun of Asian food, accent, culture, religion, costume, … you name it. Both red neck and hipster racists do it. Things are going to change only when the Asian population increases significantly, and comes into a position of power. This is not to condone racism …. To the contrary, the portrayals of Blacks on the media are probably more positive than most Asian immigrants experienced in real life.
For example, there are a lot of positive Black figures in the media, besides those athletes and entertainers, there are politicians, newscasters, sportscasters, lawyers, doctors which we rarely meet in real life. Their views toward Blacks are mostly shaped by their real life encounters with Black. As for myself and most Chinese I know of, we have been able to see individual incidents as just that—individual, since day one.
I often initiate friendly chat with Black strangers when I have chance. My views on Blacks was sympathetic at the very beginning, thinking that it was all Whites faults that that they were mistreated, then changed to not so sympathetic after I had seen and experienced many things, then changed to very sympathetic again after I understood better about what Black people and black kids have experienced.
The opinions on Blacks and black issues of many Chinese that I know of stay at second stage of what I have been through. But most Chinese immigrants do see individual incidents as just individual. Did these guys apologize due to public pressure or did they apologize due to them realizing they were being racially insensitive? King, I agree with you a lot of times, but as you said Asians not letting the black guy into the club is racist and we need to call them on that, we also need to be able to call it when black people are racist.
I do not think it is a question of who is more racist or not. As Juan stated earlier, the question is: The reasons might be many. The experiences may vary. And it does not matter if they are FOB or not, old or young, rich or poor. Asian people have a very hard time admitting this to themselves. I have only met one or two that even brought up the subject or racism, let alone admit that Asians can be so racist towards blacks. Black kids in general tend to pick with every group of kids, even black kids. If you go down that road you may not like what you find.
So, I guess Asians have to fight among themselves to get a free pass to indulge in more of the same with the Blacks. Is that the best you can do Dr. Why is it even a question if Asians can have prejudice towards Black? Are Asians manna from heaven? So, far I have not been able to get an answer as to what those special features might be.
We even have some dichotomy into historical and psychological racism whatever that means… I have no idea. All racism seems psychological to me mostly learned from parents …. Barry can do drugs, and Floyd Mayweather can run his mouth, and very few people look up to them as bearers of wisdom or common sense. Jason Whitlock was racist, but as King said, he apologized.
I think lots of normal non-HBD Asians do talk about their experiences with racism from black people in poor areas. Same with Melo who probably felt threatened an Asian person was taking him out of the spotlight. Same thing can be said about Blacks. With your logic, Blacks are also very racist toward Asians, and even more so. Because in our contacts with Blacks, most of the times, they are the aggressors and we are the victims. You are very lucky to have met one or two Asians that brought up the subject of racism.
You may not have met Asians in real life admitting they can be so racist towards blacks, but your can see that all over the internet. May be you are the one can admit that? I think everyone should be held to the same standard. I think everyone should be held to the same standards unless they can personally argue that their experiences set them apart from others. Yes, in recent years , the media has become much better in regard to portraying Blacks than it once was, but you have to consider that this has happened only after a century and a half of extremely negative media.
This has contributed to the denigration of Black culture all around the world, even from people who have never met a single Black person in their home country. The place is rife with problems, and problem people. BUT, bear in mind that unless an Asian family lives in close proximity to the ghetto, they are not likely to have much interaction with ghetto pathologies. Most Asians in this country to NOT live close to a ghetto. In fact, most Asians either live around fellow Asians or White people and have no extensive real world experience with Blacks.
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Again, if you really think of all the Black people that you have had significant contact with, you will find that there are hundreds of Blacks with whom you have interacted who have simply been neutral and caused you no trouble at all. So, many are making judgements about an entire population of people based on a few bad personal incidents, regardless of many more neutral or even positive personal incidents. Exactly, even our good friend Chr shows he looks down on FOBs by what he posts. I guess you can compare it to as we talked about not all Africans and African Americans getting along.
Your above statement is very wrong. The negative views are on the ghetto blacks. I think so, but usually only white men get punished for racist behavior, and even then, they rarely get punished. Whitlock definitely got a pass. But I do believe he wrote that feeling threatened by Asians excelling in something important to him, Pro basketball. That Korean singer was responding to the boxer and his comments.
Super racist but it was a response to an earlier racist comment. I see what you are getting at but the choice of words is off putting a bit. Blacks can admit that blacks treat Asians poorly or can be very racist towards Asians. I see blacks that treat Asians poorly. I see blacks that treat Asians well. Do you not know any blacks currently irl? Kind of like what I see happening here a bit. I mentioned I met a few, not many, but a few. I get the feeling Asian people are uncomfortable talking about such matters. Very telling, because my experience is the complete polar opposite. This is something I realized, that Asians can be racist towards Asians as well.
When a White person accuses Black to be very racist toward White, or even to be the most racist people, if you can happily admitting that without getting upset or defending Blacks, then we may continue our conversation. There I said it again. There are good people and bad people among Asians and Blacks. Moreover, good people sometimes do bad things, and bad people do good. Try not to make it another why Asians do this or Asians do that? There are more than 2 billion Asians who are all individuals. Native Americans are very prejudiced against Whites too!
They can be VERY distrustful, of White people and seem to have an unfair and negative perception that White people may try to take advantage of them! Are you saying your upset or are you saying I am upset? I do not see why the scenario you listed should be a perquisite for continued talks between us or any asian or black person. If you feel this is the end result then perhaps that is why you do not have many blacks that talk to you about racism? Above I stated that the inverse is also true of blacks. Here are a few examples. People have been fired based on comments depending on how much noise or coverage it gets.
If you really interprete my previous post which was in response to what Dr. No, unlike what you assumed, our unhappy encounters with Blacks are not isolated incidents, and mostly not happen in or near ghettos. For myself, I actually never had any bad experience in the few times that I went to places near the ghettos. Now, we are accused of being the most racist people, Dr. Comparing always involve two or more things. I am not saying racism is pointless. How can it be when it effects peoples life!!??!!
I am saying comparing who is more racist is pointless, in particular as Juan implies if Asians are more racist than others. I know some non-Asians have a fascination for if Asians do this or do that. I am telling you, we are just like everyone else.
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I was giving you the benefit of doubt. You want to go there. We are talking about human behavior that can be changed not the sum of angles in a triangle on a flat Euclidean surface. So, what do you suggest? Just accept the status quo and allow it to continue? Or perhaps Asians should also dish out the same, and then claim its not right but thats the truth. Will that make things better? Just claim something is the truth and allow it to go on? Well if thats your stand, then there is nothing valuable you can add to the discussion … because the answer to everything can be surmised as it might not be right but thats the way it is.
Secondly, I have said from the beginning that the prejudice absolutely goes both ways. I have also said that most Asians in cases where they are prejudiced against Blacks seem to be more fearful than hateful. There is a huge difference. Often times, they are totally wrong in their assessment and in their subsequent foolish actions. So, just to get all that out on the table and once again.
Now allow me to respond to your point. But I do think that I can speak to the larger point. Racism is something that I think we all have to look at in two ways. Now on a personal level, racism is racism, and anyone who condones, harbors, or practices it is culpable to the extent that they participate in it.
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However, EVERYONE is guilty of some level of personal racism and we should all be able to acknowledge our own racism and as a result, have greater patience and understanding of the racism of others. That is always wrong to do. However, there is a difference between empowered Institutional racism and personal racism. The latter only deals with the feelings and actions between individuals, but when racism actually becomes an Institution, it has the power to create laws, to be included in political platforms, to be indoctrinated through education, to become part of the prevailing philosophies and popular religions.
That is the great difference between historic White racism and Black racism. White racism comes with the full power of the social order behind it.
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Black racism does not now, and never has had the power to have this effect upon people. If White Institutional racism says that you must abandon your property and report to an internment camp because you cannot be trusted, then then you must do it by force of law or face the threat of death. And in a democratic republic the people vote to put their lawmakers in power and to keep them there. They vote in approval or disapproval of their policies. And so by voting for the legislative instigators of such racist polices, time and time again, the Society White and the individuals who support it becomes collectively responsible for their injustice.
On the other hand, if there is an incident where a Black criminal attacks a Chinese store owner, Black people did not vote on that policy and approve it. If a group of stupid Black teenage delinquents beat up some Asian kid at school it was not done by duly appointed representatives or officers of the Black people.
They are just criminals with no authority to act in the name of any race. You are wrong here. The pain inflicted on the victim is the same whether the racism is personal or institutional. The question is not whether the pain is the same, the question goes to corporate culpability and the full power of the social order to back up your racism and justify it. Yes, there is a distinction between 1 personal, and 2 institutional racism. However, in between 1 and 2, there is the case of 1.
Those in position of power use their personal racism though there is no written law for institutional racism in place. This often times blur the lines. Thats the kind of racism from Whites I usually face. In , Asian students were singled out and attacked in their high school in Philadelphia. To me it seem racially motivated because the victims were chosen because of their race.
The teachers turned a blind eye, okay fine. When it was brought to the attention of higher up, they Ackerman tried to pass it off as gang related, then as something that started off campus, then because they found one of the perpetuators to be a Cambodian girl it was something else. What about the fact that the chinese and Vietnamese students were singled out for their ethnicity?
The school administration dragged its feet. In between we saw some ridiculous measure such as hiring a black security guard who spoke cantonese. How is that going to help? A retired Black judge was asked to investigate who found no evidence of racism. The Mayor also turned a blind eye. To cut a long story short, it finally took the intervention of the Justice Department to force the school district to acknowledge racial problems, and take corrective measure. This happened because of the courageous young men who were the victims of the violence. They were new immigrants with low English proficiency.
Here is another example of 1. Majority can create a situation where small personal racism can all add up. I was at the DMV. The DMV women clerk who was black was talking to him in a rude and condescending manner. In response, the clerk kept raising her voice as if speaking louder would help cross the language barrier. It was quite comical.
I helped out the student with his forms. There is always the case of the Black boss who then acts out his own personal racism under the color of authority. Or the School District bureaucrats who are slow to see Black on Asian racism, but would be all over it if it was White on Black racism. These are all examples of a disgusting misuse of power. Yet, in many of these stories, there is also another side of it. For example, in the case of Marion Barry the fool his statements were soundly opposed and denounced by members of his own City Council who were also Black.
And in the aftermath of the Philadelphia School District Black on Asian Attacks, there were many Blacks around the country who signed the petitions and even donated money to help the Asian students to stand up to this bullying. The Black Mayor, Michael Nutter began a campaign of condemning the ghetto youth culture in the city, almost immediately after the incidents:.
Tell these commentators to go look for MC Hammer so we can hit that sweet 1K jackpot. Please remember, we are not talking about institutional racism, we are talking about Asian racism toward Blacks which is individual, like the racism of Black toward Asians , its roots and psychology, we are talking about if this Asian racism is so unreasonable, unfounded and hard for people to be understand.
When we talk about Asian kids being bullied at school by Black kids, the response we got from a black adult Dr. Do we really need racist mainstream media to brain wash us, or older Asians to warn our new comers to form these negative feelings and views on Blacks? Is is really that hard for Blacks people to take a look at themselves once in a while and see what them did to others, take at least part of the responsibilities, and not to cry racism for the consequences of their actions?
And you will keep getting that response. Because it is true. As stated this does not make it right but it is true. Black kids will go for the perceived weaker kids. Whether or not the kid is Asian. Why you and john doe keep avoiding certain key phrase eludes me. That is aother can of worms altogether.
Those racist black kids. As for what i think, i think you have a hard time admiting you dont know many black people that will be this honest with you. I gave you some hard truth. Deny it or not. That is your choice. You can defend yourself just fine. But what are you defending yourself from? I only put down some truth and asked you a few questions. No way, his post was about asking a simple question: Not who is more racist. I saw that you asked, and answered that yourself, who is more racist.
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I have asked and pose the question again: Black people can be racist. Does the amount of blacks need to be a certain number? Also, It does not matter how many Asians or blacks on the web are in whichever camp. If you are not affecting change outside of your computer it will always be moot. Also, further repeating the offer. I am genuinely interested. We know how much you love to talk about it. Well yes, you are correct in that we were talking about intra-minority racism, but once you began to argue that White and Black racism were equivalent, it became necessary to point out the mitigating factors of Institutional racism.
Agreed, and the reverse is also true. Mainstream Blacks see Asians as fellow minorities who also get a raw deal from the system at times, and are sympathetic to their cause. However, at this point you have gone completely off the tracks and have careened headlong into the dark and yawning chasm of prejudice.
Are you listening to yourself? MOST of the Blacks that you encounter are going to live a pluralistic lifestyle and exist peaceably with their neighbors of all colors. They were discriminated against in terms of pay and forced to work under abysmal conditions. White workers viewed them as economic competitors and racial inferiors, thereby stimulating the passage of discriminatory laws and the commission of widespread acts of violence against the Chinese.
In these ghettos, they managed to eke out a meager existence, but were isolated from the rest of the population, making it difficult if not impossible to assimilate into mainstream society. To add insult to injury, Chinese were criticized for their alleged unassimilability. Here is what I said: Nothing else is comparable nor equivalent.
Let me rephrase it. But this much higher incident rate should be enough for us to take extra cautious when dealing with Black people, just like we will take extra cautious when driving in a snowy day. My question is, are you also just as afraid of Whites? And if not, why not? Secondly, I reject the premise of your scenario because it has never been established that Asians have more trouble with Blacks than anyone else.
Would you then be afraid of Colin Powell if you saw him on the street today? Would you be afraid of Bill Cosby? How about Gabby Douglas? What if you saw this guy walking down the street? Brown skin is never the only indicator of risk, any more than being right-handed is. You have to treat Black people just like you would treat anyone else and use your brain to assess whether they present any unique risk based on a variety of factors. Maybe he can help me carry my groceries!
Maybe according to him, I initiated hostilities. The guy probably was just trying to be friendly, but I ignored him because…well, I had no idea he was trying to talk to me. Another example, when my coworker Jamie was playing with me in the Working on your Mack post , at first I thought he was being a jerk. I felt like he was violating some kind of personal boundary. Later, I realized he was just having fun with me, a kind of conviviality, nothing personal.
So if I were a new immigrant and someone was playing with me like this, I would easily and perhaps understandably think of this as an unpleasant experience, whereas Jamie never intended it as such. As it turns out, Jamie was one of the coolest coworkers I had at that place. There was no dude in the entire place who was as much fun to joke around with.
The guy was fast, witty, and had all sorts of cool observations. Plus, he could sell like crazy! You will always appreciate the new things that you learn about yourself. And you will always have good stories to tell. If you fall in love with a woman who loves to see the world, you will never be bored or grow tired of the routine, because you will always find exciting ways to fill your days and hours together. But if you fall in love with a woman who loves the whole big world, be true to her , because she will not wait around for things to get better.
She will move on to new horizons. Because she knows with so many choices in this life—where to go, what to eat, who to be with—the best path is the simplest: Your amazing experiences through travel are both expanding and simplifying you as a person! You are, indeed, finding your way! Reblogged this on Eating my boogers! Thanks for writing this. I find it totally cheesy but cute. However, this woman you speak of, where can I find her?
It may make for a fabulous short love affair, but what are the chances she will want to keep traveling and sharing those fabulous moments only with this guy who wants to see the world as much as she does? Oh well, your cute and corny contribution to the slush, is exactly what I often think I will need from a woman, if I am ever to settle down, especially now that I have the travel bug. You can definitely find her when you are out traveling. But, maybe sometime the key to finding is to stop looking so much and just let things happen.
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