Hence, the cry of "rating doesn't work well" since even pros can't seem to change the ELOs of accounts the system thinks should stay in the middle.
The Behavior Score Conundrum
AFAIK he's still stuck in shit creek. You can move from 2k to 4k without system dectecting easily just by inhousing a lot for example.
Are we supposed to just not care because that is still in the trenches? Juice hasn't even managed a 1k rise yet he hasn't even lost a single game Bullshit test which doesnt say much. People dont get born with 5k rating and have to work themselves up the ratingsystem. They start out as noobs and get better slowly because the opposition is also better. U cant really test that on a smale scale or not as simple as this test. He is a capt. Now you can't be serious. You mean that rating that I've managed to get after at least games of Dota is why they have put that stipulation there and why they made me play those games?
You mean that a person is always going to end up wherever it is that they belong? Clearly I'm a 5k player and just stuck with huge noobs here at 3k. Seriously it's like people think that just playing the game should make them swing up by 1k points every time they start it up. Actual improvement is slow. That's how you know it's real improvement. You don't suddenly wake up one day twice as good as you were, you put the effort in and eventually you get to your pinnacle.
And you do this by playing. First of all this ladder system isn't new, this is pretty much gosugamer's ranking system and we've been bitching about it despite it only applying to pro teams. Even gg has acknowledged thier ladder sucks but ranking teams isn't easy and we just have to live with it. What Juice has shown that uncertainty was a very poorly implemented.
If you have a large pool of 3k players will any outcome be suprising? No of course not. MMR but I think we can all agree that there is some relationship between the two. Climbing back up would be a pain in the ass. I'm not talking about ELO hell here since I believe the climb is possible. But should the climb be such a pain? Sure he wins on his way up but would he enjoy being in 3k when he is really 3. According to juice there is a visible difference between the 2 levels so I would say the 3. Fix the implmentation of "uncertainty".
Right now it should only change at the two tails of the MMR bell curve. A lot of us has had many problems with sc2 but no one complained about climbing its ladder. In sc2 if you're on a win streak it progressively puts you up against harder opponents giving you a chance to accelerate your MMR gain, vice versa if you're up too high. In the above example you would make up MMR easily, you would still be unhappy about the games but at least you won't have to put up with it for long. I think thats a better way of putting people where they "belong".
It doesn't change the status quo but it helps people who believe they're in ELO hell and are actually climbing up. I've been watching juice's game and some of them were only even because he did a calculated dive into 5 people to get some kills. That is something no one in 4k has the guts to do so I doubt you would have the same results as him even if you're higher than his opponents. You can't just be better you gotta be significantly better to climb the solo queue by yourself. Yes but should that really be the point of a ladder system? Shouldn't the ladder instead just quickly get you back to where you belong if you start playing at optimal condition?
This isn't about rising your MMR but the speed of getting to where you should be if you decide to start playing serious.
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We could be saying how you shouldn't be doing dumb things to lower your MMR but thats a strawman really if we create a system that tries to measure skill the only thing that matters is your current skill level. If I was playing dota during a bad week I should be able to quickly get back to where I was b4 that week if that is where I really belong. I don't really think its fair to say skill doesn't change, when we look at sc2 moving from bronze to diamond was a pretty easy process and they had a system in place that didn't require us to put millions of hours into achieving that and it worked out fine.
We didn't have millions of people in diamond who didn't belong you might consider them bad but they were generally better than bronze. The only difference is that in sc2 you could move quickly. By definition, reversing an MMR drop requires you to do the opposite of what got you there No there is a difference, you won't free fall, just because you're not playing optimal doesn't mean you gone full retarded.
If under the sc2 system and lose 1k you would have a much easier time getting on a winstreak and getting that bonus MMR. Going up you would face much tougher opponents so its not like it is a one way ticket up. That's not at all what I was saying. It appears you don't understand that I wasn't in any way suggesting that an overnight MMR change of 3k would happen nor would most people interpret it as such. I was not aware the MMR balanced out over games, as I have only played perhaps a quarter of that in total ranked games so far.
I guess that design was so that wild swings do not occur often, but all I have been doing since I got placed is steadily rise up. Perhaps it just FEELS so ridiculously long because games is a lot of time spent playing for the casuals. A 5k player who only plays 15 games a week probably will have to wait a long time to see where they actually are if they got placed at 3. A 5k player can play 1game a week, if they have the level, they will be placed around 5k. The games are the unranked games you have to play to reach lvl In your imaginary world where 6k players get placed at 2k for some unknown reasons, the ranked matchmaking needs to change.
Luckily, in reality, it doesn't exist.
What would these top Dota players ask IceFrog?
This thread would actually get somewhere if we would define ELOhell first, as most individuals define it differently. I would define ELOhell like you are playing atleast slightly not much, just slightly better then all the other players, but your positive gameimpact will allways be less, then the negative game impact from one of the other players.
To a certain degree this definition could make sence and elohell could exist. Your positive game impact would allmost have no influence to the outcome of a game and your personal mmr. The only way to get out of this ELOhell would a the road of an unlimited amount of games to make "the negative game impact players turn into insignificant static in the data".
Good luck with finding the time to play so many games before you die of a stroke by pure stress and agony alone, haha It would basically mean that most players will be stuck after valve gives you your mmr range. Because valve mmr system doesnt start of with alot of indidivual data, this definition of ELOhell could seem possible i think.
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That's not the definition of Elo Hell. Anyone that complains about Elo Hell bitches about their teammates being terrible, not "slightly worse". The whole concept of all players being so bad the game ends up as a coin toss, since your contribution ends up being meanings when your teammates always end up thowing the game just doesn't work in the definition you describe.
That's why a 5k grabbing a 2k account makes sense.
4 things we want to see in Dota 2 in 2018
Some people even say not even a pro could easily leave Elo Hell. This whole slightly better thing seems like a compromise when people realise how Elo Hell makes no sense, so you would grab at a similiar concept, that still allows you to believe you must be better than your teammates, but isn't as easy to refute. Just google "What is Elo Hell" or something like that. You won't find anything similar to your definition.
This is exactly what i wrote Therefore a change in mmr gained by gametime would be minimal even when your playing better then most players in your range. Only thing is that 5k player trapped in 2k range isnt a normal occurence. Dont argue just because u like it. Dont argue just because u like it That's not exactly what you wrote.
There is a pretty big diference between terrible and slightly worse teammates. And the concept that your team is so bad that no matter what you do you will lose. It's completelly diferent from you being so slightly better than your team that the diference takes too long to adjust. Sry to say but using "strawman" because you read this on reddit doesnt make your statement any better.
You realize that you have to play games to acutally start the calibration right? That means all that games will be taken into account once you start the calibration, which means that this isnt just about 10games it is about games at least. Now if you refer to the sc2 system, take a bronze account that made games in bronze and then try laddering it up to diamond. It takes games to ladder this account into diamond, straight wins.
I did this once because i was curious how long it would take to get a account stuck in bronze to diamond. There is a huge difference between a new sc2 account and an account that already made a shitload of games and is stuck in a league. If you are getting disconnected from Dota 2 across multiple games or with any regularity, this points to an issue with your connection to the Dota 2 or Steam network.
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